Investigations into Socket 939 Athlon 64 Overclocking
by Jarred Walton on October 3, 2005 4:35 PM EST- Posted in
- CPUs
Power Supply
Despite what manufacturers might want you to believe, power supplies are less about wattage and more about the amount and quality of current that they can supply. In theory, the Watts rating of a PSU can be determined with the current and voltage ratings. Using the equation P = I x V (Power = Current x Voltage), you can come up with a Wattage for each voltage that the PSU provides, add them all together, and you have the rating. Simple enough, right? Unfortunately, there are problems with this method of rating a power supply.
The biggest problem is that PCs don't require equal amounts of power from each voltage, and the wattage rating simply serves to obfuscate the real power levels. The +12V rating is generally the most important rating, and modern ATX2.0 PSUs actually require two +12V rails (i.e. outputs form the PSU). Two 500W PSUs from different manufacturers could actually have wildly different characteristics in the type of power that they provide. In a really bad PSU, reality can be further distorted by providing high output ratings on the -5V and -12V lines. Computers draw very little power from the negative lines, so if a PSU were to rate the -12V line at 3A instead of a more common 1A (or less), they can inflate their wattage by 25W or more. As if that isn't bad enough, there are even more ways to "cheat" the rating.
Temperature plays a role in determining the output capacity of a power supply. You can read about it elsewhere, but the main concept is the following: "The thermal capacity of materials changes slightly with temperature primarily due to changes in density." Part of what allows a power supply to provide current at a specific voltage is the ability to transform the 115V input from the wall (or 230V in other areas of the world) to a different value. Such a change creates heat, and the heat has to be dissipated. Inside a power supply, you will find heat sinks much like what you see on a motherboard, along with a cooling fan or fans. Depending on how the power supply is rated, it might actually provide 450W at 10 degrees C and only 375 W at 30 degrees C. (You'd have to know the specific heat values for the various materials inside a PSU to really be able to calculate how temperature affects the output capacity for a specific PSU.) Nearly all modern computers will have a case temperature in the 30 degrees C or higher range, so a PSU rated using 10-25 degrees C values is far from a realistic representation of the PSU's output capacity.
Lastly, just because a power supply can provide a specific output doesn't mean it can do so well. In the US, power from the wall outlets comes at 115V, but variance is allowed. In fact, the output voltage can fluctuate between 110V and 121V (5%) while still being within spec. That may be fine for some household items like lamps and coffee makers, but computers tend to be a little more demanding in their requirements. A power supply that outputs 3.2V, 4.8V, and 11.5V is still technically within the required range, and there's a good chance that it will work with a typical PC. What really causes problems are fluctuations, which are usually influenced by the use of lower quality components as well as temperature changes. Even though a PSU might work in a regular PC, though, overclocking really pushes things to the limit, and it's far better to have a PSU that can output voltages exactly at spec than a few percent high or low.
One of the easiest ways to determine the quality of a power supply is to simply pick it up. A 500W power supply should weigh quite a bit more than a 350W power supply; if it doesn't, be suspicious. Reading the label on a power supply can be helpful, but that doesn't usually tell you the temperature at which it was tested, and of course, it could always be inaccurate. The saying "you get what you pay for" also applies, so if a PSU costs far less than the rating would suggest, it's likely that the unit isn't really as good as the sticker claims. A better idea is to just go with a respected name, as we suggested with motherboards. Our top picks for PSU manufacturers are Antec, Enermax, Fotron Source, OCZ, and Seasonic. Enermax, OCZ and Seasonic are probably the safest bets, as they don't really have "value" and "performance" parts right now, though the more expensive Antec and Fotron Source units are just as good. If you want a high quality power supply and you're shopping online, here's the fastest test: does it cost less than $75? If so, it's probably a moderate unit, and under $50 is an inexpensive unit. The good power supplies almost always cost $80 or more. If you're not sure, though, ask around! Some times, there are good deals to be had on high quality power supplies.
With all the above talk about getting a quality power supply, we also ran some tests using a cheap PSU that came with an even cheaper case. The case was the MGE and 400W PSU that we recommended in our last Budget Buyer's Guide. The case is flimsy, made of thin aluminum, and the cables for the front USB and Firewire ports were very difficult to work with - they were separated into single-pin connectors rather than a block of pins. It's impossible to say what the long-term reliability of such a case is, but it's been running nearly 24/7 for a couple of months now without any problems. The highest overclocks seemed a bit less stable with the 20-pin power connection, but we did manage to match the overclock of the OCZ PowerStream 600W. Maximum power draw for the test configuration was measured at around 220W, so we never came close to the 400W power rating.
Despite what manufacturers might want you to believe, power supplies are less about wattage and more about the amount and quality of current that they can supply. In theory, the Watts rating of a PSU can be determined with the current and voltage ratings. Using the equation P = I x V (Power = Current x Voltage), you can come up with a Wattage for each voltage that the PSU provides, add them all together, and you have the rating. Simple enough, right? Unfortunately, there are problems with this method of rating a power supply.
The biggest problem is that PCs don't require equal amounts of power from each voltage, and the wattage rating simply serves to obfuscate the real power levels. The +12V rating is generally the most important rating, and modern ATX2.0 PSUs actually require two +12V rails (i.e. outputs form the PSU). Two 500W PSUs from different manufacturers could actually have wildly different characteristics in the type of power that they provide. In a really bad PSU, reality can be further distorted by providing high output ratings on the -5V and -12V lines. Computers draw very little power from the negative lines, so if a PSU were to rate the -12V line at 3A instead of a more common 1A (or less), they can inflate their wattage by 25W or more. As if that isn't bad enough, there are even more ways to "cheat" the rating.
Temperature plays a role in determining the output capacity of a power supply. You can read about it elsewhere, but the main concept is the following: "The thermal capacity of materials changes slightly with temperature primarily due to changes in density." Part of what allows a power supply to provide current at a specific voltage is the ability to transform the 115V input from the wall (or 230V in other areas of the world) to a different value. Such a change creates heat, and the heat has to be dissipated. Inside a power supply, you will find heat sinks much like what you see on a motherboard, along with a cooling fan or fans. Depending on how the power supply is rated, it might actually provide 450W at 10 degrees C and only 375 W at 30 degrees C. (You'd have to know the specific heat values for the various materials inside a PSU to really be able to calculate how temperature affects the output capacity for a specific PSU.) Nearly all modern computers will have a case temperature in the 30 degrees C or higher range, so a PSU rated using 10-25 degrees C values is far from a realistic representation of the PSU's output capacity.
Lastly, just because a power supply can provide a specific output doesn't mean it can do so well. In the US, power from the wall outlets comes at 115V, but variance is allowed. In fact, the output voltage can fluctuate between 110V and 121V (5%) while still being within spec. That may be fine for some household items like lamps and coffee makers, but computers tend to be a little more demanding in their requirements. A power supply that outputs 3.2V, 4.8V, and 11.5V is still technically within the required range, and there's a good chance that it will work with a typical PC. What really causes problems are fluctuations, which are usually influenced by the use of lower quality components as well as temperature changes. Even though a PSU might work in a regular PC, though, overclocking really pushes things to the limit, and it's far better to have a PSU that can output voltages exactly at spec than a few percent high or low.
One of the easiest ways to determine the quality of a power supply is to simply pick it up. A 500W power supply should weigh quite a bit more than a 350W power supply; if it doesn't, be suspicious. Reading the label on a power supply can be helpful, but that doesn't usually tell you the temperature at which it was tested, and of course, it could always be inaccurate. The saying "you get what you pay for" also applies, so if a PSU costs far less than the rating would suggest, it's likely that the unit isn't really as good as the sticker claims. A better idea is to just go with a respected name, as we suggested with motherboards. Our top picks for PSU manufacturers are Antec, Enermax, Fotron Source, OCZ, and Seasonic. Enermax, OCZ and Seasonic are probably the safest bets, as they don't really have "value" and "performance" parts right now, though the more expensive Antec and Fotron Source units are just as good. If you want a high quality power supply and you're shopping online, here's the fastest test: does it cost less than $75? If so, it's probably a moderate unit, and under $50 is an inexpensive unit. The good power supplies almost always cost $80 or more. If you're not sure, though, ask around! Some times, there are good deals to be had on high quality power supplies.
Click to enlarge.
With all the above talk about getting a quality power supply, we also ran some tests using a cheap PSU that came with an even cheaper case. The case was the MGE and 400W PSU that we recommended in our last Budget Buyer's Guide. The case is flimsy, made of thin aluminum, and the cables for the front USB and Firewire ports were very difficult to work with - they were separated into single-pin connectors rather than a block of pins. It's impossible to say what the long-term reliability of such a case is, but it's been running nearly 24/7 for a couple of months now without any problems. The highest overclocks seemed a bit less stable with the 20-pin power connection, but we did manage to match the overclock of the OCZ PowerStream 600W. Maximum power draw for the test configuration was measured at around 220W, so we never came close to the 400W power rating.
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Lonyo - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
NO, DON'T, UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING BETWEEN YOUR FINGER AND THE PASTE.Arctic Silver 5 instructions:
DO NOT use your bare finger to apply or smooth the compound (skin cells, and oils again).
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
Er... I didn't use Arctic Silver. Just the grease that came with the XP-90. I suppose there might be some thermal compounds that would be bad to touch. RTFM, right?Anyway, I'm not particularly convinced of the effectiveness of stuff like Arctic Silver. At one point, there was some story about how the AS batches for a while didn't actually contain any silver because the manufacturing company was skimping on costs (unbeknownst to Arctic Silver or their customers). I could be wrong, but I'm half-convinced AS is just a placebo effect. :)
poohbear - Tuesday, January 3, 2006 - link
that wasnt arctic silver, that was another company entirely (name eludes me since it was 2+ years ago)PrinceGaz - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
Regardless of the compound, you shouldn't touch it with your finger for the reason stated-- skin cells and grease from your finger will be left on the grease and they act as a barrier that reduces thermal-conduction. The simplest way to avoid this is to put a clean plastic bag over your hand before touching the compound as that will prevent any contamination.Regardless of what you say about AS5, numerous reviews of thermal-compunds have shown that compared to the the standard grease supplied with AMD boxed processors, AS5 alone can lower temperatures by a few degrees C. Given how cheap AS5 is compared with a decent heatsink (like the XP-90), it is a very good idea to get some AS5 if also buying a better HSF than what is supplied with the CPU. Using the grease supplied with the CPU or heatsink is a false economy.
THG64 - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
From my own experience I would say the BIOS is at least as important as the hardware itself.My A8N using 1004 final BIOS can run my A64 3200+ @ 2500 MHz (10 x 250, 1.4125V) and the memory at 208 MHz 1T (2x 1GB MDT DDR400 2.5-3-3-8). There is no chance to get a higher frequency running because I get memory problems at anything above 250 MHz (known as 1T bug). I tested the memory up to 217MHz so its not the limiting factor.
Over the months I made many attempts to upgrade BIOS to newer versions and had no luck at all. The last version were even more interesting because of the A64 X2 support. No chance to get even up to 250MHz base. Only the reason has changed it seems. I made a HD upgrade in between and switched from a PATA drive to a SATA drive. This made it even worse.
From 1005 to 1010 the BIOS limited the overclocking to 215 to 220 MHz through reworked memory options. After 1010 the memory isn't the problem anymore or at least not the main problem. Windows is loading until desktop and while the OS is still loading in background the HD LED stays on and the system freezes.
As mentioned in the conclusion the SATA controller seems to limit the possible o/c.
If there would be a lowcost PCIe SATA controller I would surely give it a try but at the moment I stay with 1004 and and more or less working SATA drive at 250 MHz.
lopri - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
Hi,I'm currently running X2 4800+ in my rig. I think I can safely OC it to 2750MHz. But the thing is, my RAM can only do 220MHz.. And the mobo doesn't support anything other than DDR400, DDR333, DDR266. (A8N-SLI Premium)
What are the penalty of running a half-multi? I understand a half-multi won't get you the ideal memp speed, but in my situation I can make up for it by being able to raise the HTT some more. Basically I have following options.
CPU (Max): 2750MHz @1.475V
RAM (Max): 220MHz @2.75V (2-3-2-5-1T)
Therefore, here is what I can do:
1. 10.5 x 261: This gives me CPU 2741MHz and memory 211MHz. (from CPU-Z reading)
2. 11 x 250: This give me CPU 2750Mhz and memory 196Mhz. (from CPU-Z reading)
If I run Sandra I get almost the same CPU score from both settings. But I get a quite bigger memory bandwidth score from the Setting #1. In ideal world (that is, if only the final achieved speed matters), I definitely think the Setting #1 is better. I'd like to know if there is any "inherent" penalty attached to non-integer multipliers.
Could you help me out? Thanks a bunch!
lop
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
At one point in time, the half multipliers didn't really work properly. They were just hiding some behind-the-scenes memory and bus tweaks. CPU-Z apparently doesn't report this properly. Anyway, if the system runs stable in either configuration, take the configuration that performs better. (Run a variety of tests - memory bandwidth alone doesn't tell the whole story.)Sunrise089 - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
How important is that XP-90? I am wondering if you all feel it is necessary, feel it is necessary for long term safety, or really feel the $45 would be better spent elsewhere?P.S. - Thanks Anandtech. 3000+, X-800 GTO2, and value RAM costs about $400, and overclocked performs about as fast as a stock speed FX-55, x850 xt-pe, and high-end RAM costing $1000+. Your last two updates alone could have saved someone $600.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
You can get the XP-90 and a 92mm fan for about $40 shipped, but what's $5? How important is it? Well, I think you could probably get an extra 100 to 200 MHz relative to the retail HSF. I'll be working on testing a few cooling options in a future article. The XP-90 is quieter than the retail fan, but other than that... I'll have to see what difference it makes.da2ce7 - Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - link
When I over clocked my X2 3800+ I got up to 2.6ghz, at 1.45V;But What I am really want to know about it the both the “safe” and “generally stable” cup temperatures, a table of temps from below 20ºC to 80ºC, where the core goes up in smoke (well maybe not that), would be most helpful.